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Post by kukulza on Jul 15, 2007 21:32:14 GMT
it is said that Mayan men, esp. warriors painted themselves black. This was a common practice in Mesoamerica... even the Shoshones Indians who met up with the Lewis&Clark expedition commented on what a great warrior their black slave must be (judging from the blackness of his skin)....
so its not an unknown thing....
but are all warriors painted black?
I know many Itza warriors were, and Mayan warriros tended to be but then again on murals the warriors are not ALWAYS in black, sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not. A good example of where they are not is on the Bonampak murals....
so?
I think we should have both, this'll add a lot of variety to the unit selection and help differentiate factions. Regardless even without being painted black many warriors did have tatoos and other decoration
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Post by Lignator on Jul 16, 2007 2:23:36 GMT
sounds good to me.
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Post by meliritiatl on Jul 16, 2007 6:16:34 GMT
Hmm, i dont know about black. I know they had tattos on their bodies but i never read anywhere that they were black painted. I would go for the tattoing way, but not for all of them, maybe half and half could be ornamented with jewllery. Anyway i uploaded the Maya on the e-mail.
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Post by kukulza on Jul 16, 2007 12:39:20 GMT
you have never heard of being painted black? [/b]Until marriage, young men painted themselves black (and so did warriors at all times); tattooing and decorative scarification began after wedlock... "[/ul] page 195, from The Maya 6th Edition by Michael D. Coe I heard it referenced to in other places and seen pictures of murals both with warriors painted black and not painted black
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Post by meliritiatl on Jul 16, 2007 13:02:56 GMT
ok no problem, Vuk can paint a couple of units black. Have you by any chance checked the Maya units and the unit line? What do you think?
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Post by kukulza on Jul 16, 2007 13:39:52 GMT
I have only seen the... deer warrior boar warriors crocodile warrior from here: www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97864so far they look great... but I'd expect them to be on the rare/expensive side.... closer to nobles than ordinary braves (holcanob). as for the list.... [1] could be Holkanob (braves) since it makes sense ordinary braves could be the basic unit for the Mayans... you can say like... Holkan Clubmen or something... [3] could easily be Holkan Spearmen... Mayan warriors often wore tapir hide, cotton/padded cloth cuirasses, or no armor (if they were light and ambushing) I don't know the word for atlatl in any Mayan language so the Nahuatl word will work for now... [5] bowmen would be a little more expensive than atlalts (though not necessarily more damaging, just further range) because they come along later in the tech-tree, archers weren't common place in Mayan armies till the Post-Classic Era. I don't know what to name them though.... Holkan Bowmen? now the next part is muy interesante... here's a good overview of rankings.... so [7] could be either the Nakom's Warband or the Batab's warband... [8] is the Almehen (=nobles), and the general would be the Ajaw accompanied by his guards.... I would suggest the lower down warriors would look more Mayan and the Ajaw's guard (general unit) look like toltec warriors... as for the animal affiliated... deer, jaguar, crocodile (caiman?), boar... I guess finding the names of the beasts and adding Holkanob wouldn't be too bad? in Yucatec Maya.... keek’en = pig in Itza Mayan.... ah tz'on = hunter ayin = alligator balam = jaguar keeh = deer kanan = guard nohoch = chief
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Post by Vuk on Jul 16, 2007 14:45:23 GMT
ok no problem, Vuk can paint a couple of units black. Have you by any chance checked the Maya units and the unit line? What do you think? Sure, I'll try. Mel, please don't show anything like that on TWC! They are fantastic! They would be perfect for the next preview!! OMG, good models! Vuk
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Post by kukulza on Jul 16, 2007 22:24:29 GMT
meliritiatl, as you seem to be the leader 'round here... just let me know if my ideas were good and fitting. I'm just trying to be helpful...
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Post by Filibusteria on Jul 16, 2007 22:40:54 GMT
hes replacing rex as the leader while he''s out.
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Post by meliritiatl on Jul 16, 2007 22:44:16 GMT
Im not the leader. I dont like leaders especially in sth like this which is supposed to be fun. It was Rex^s idea and i respect the man, he is my friend. But iin such a project where there is no commitment in the form of payment and the such, if someone tries to play it bossy he will only lose. Anyone can quit and a ~leader~ can be left alone. No, i see it more than a big partnership in order to do sth that a single individual wouldnt be able to do. I try to organize some things though thats for sure, trying to help out Rex this way and only for the well being of the mod. About your list, it is great. I prefer the nacom over the batab, i believe the nacom was more responsible for military matters. And the captain perhaps can be named al holpop? Change the list to more native names and post it ok? Unfortunately vuk i may have shown some staff to the TW center. But tommorow i can erase it if you like. Although, im sure that after you skin them they will look much, much better. It will be almost they are completely different .
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Post by kukulza on Jul 17, 2007 1:41:48 GMT
I tried to find the closest definitions, I doubt you will be disappointed... here it is: 1. Holkan Clubmen (Braves with clubs) 2. Yuntunob (slings) 3. Holkan Spearmen (braves with spears) 4. Atlatls (spearthrowers) 5. Tz'iik Tz'onob (fierce shooters) 6. Nohoch Holkanob (great warriors) 7. Nakom Kananob (warchief guards) 8. Almehen (nobles) 9. Ajaw Kananob (King's guards) 10. Keeh Ah Tz'on (Deer hunter) 11. Keek'An Ah Tz'on (pig hunter) 12. Ayin Ah Tz'on (alligator hunter) 13. Balam Ah Tz'on (Jaguar hunter) I'll come up with those nifty historical/utility descriptions that you find when you click on a unit... if you're ok with these personally I have a few suggestions as to how they should look but I'm not sure how receptive you guys are to that, probably depends on how far along the progress is... it'd be painful to change it AFTER all the beautiful models were made
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Post by Filibusteria on Jul 17, 2007 1:54:08 GMT
Kuk, could you replace the words spear and club with native words? Its better to keep all units name as homogeneous as possible.
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Post by kukulza on Jul 17, 2007 2:20:15 GMT
alright, I do not know the words for 'club' and 'spear' and I haven't been able to find them
however... Mayans had copper Axes by the time of the Spanish arrival...
in Itza Mayan, ax is b'aat so if we just changed clubs for axes, we could do B'aat Holkanob... as for spears... perhaps since there are TWO spear-types... i have a suggestion...
on the Bonampak murals warriors with spears can be seen, but they are not painted black. However they guarded the king who had captives' fingernails torn out, etc. Now if those are near the king (Ajaw) they must be more elite soldiers... those could be your elite spearmen, the best of traditional Mayan warriors (traditionally they used mostly spears, shields, and atlatls... clubs, axes, and bows are more of a Mexican import)
npow if we have one spearman who's richly plumed and unpainted (but with tattoos of course), why not express the warrior's black-paint tradition in the regular spearmen? that way we can stay accurate to history but avoid having to find the name for 'spear' ;D
b'om-b'il = painted.... B'om-b'il Holkanob means painted braves... as we know regular Mayan warriors painted themselves black, and as we know traditionally native Mayans mostly used spears.... this would make sense no?
so for [1] it can be B'aat Holkanob and for [3] it can be B'om-b'il Holkanob if you like
however if you want to show how club/axmen is more of a Mexica thing, then the Itza word for Mexican is ah Wach
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Post by Vuk on Jul 17, 2007 2:35:44 GMT
Kukulza, you really know your stuff. Any info you could get about the equiptment or customs of the factions that would be relevant to skinning would be really helpfull. Could you post it in the Vuk thread in the Unit Dev forum? Right now I am doing the Inca.
Vuk
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Post by meliritiatl on Jul 17, 2007 5:43:13 GMT
yes thats very nice work there Kuk. The thing is that i have already modelled the units so i guess we have to live with them. I will post renders of all of them tommorow so you can see what the rest of the units look like.
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