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Post by Rah'Majashan on May 25, 2007 21:09:21 GMT
I know the title is odd in a South American based form, but, I've been reading the book '1421: The year the Chinese discovered America' by Gavin Menzes, and he makes a pretty compelling arguement that the Chinese not only discovered the new world in 1421, but traded with both the Azrec and Incan cultures. He bases this on odd finds in Chinese junks and some wood working and dye making methods shared only by Mezo-Americans and the Chinese.
I was wondering, just for fun, could we script a Chinese ship, like a mercenary faction, to appear around the years 1421 or 1422. Sort of like an Easter Egg in a game?
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Post by Murfios on May 25, 2007 21:26:36 GMT
It would be fun to have a message: "Men with the eyes of the boars hair'' came to visit us. Something like that...
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Post by Vuk on May 26, 2007 0:03:08 GMT
lol, looked into that when the book came out, it is not very trustworthy. At first everyone was jumping up and down for it, but as soon as people started to look into it, they saw that he was wrong.
Vuk
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Post by Rah'Majashan on May 26, 2007 5:20:52 GMT
Well, I'm not saying I'm completely won over by the argument, just thought it would be interesting. I think he did a lot of things by conjecture and sort of manipulated the evidence to come out the way he want it to and there's honestly no concrete proof to support his theory and the amount of ships he said had to have sunk to support his claims would have meant we would be seeing Chinese everywhere. Just thought I would toss it out there and see if it stuck
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Post by rexdacorum on May 26, 2007 13:26:07 GMT
Many ancient and medieval civilizations had good sailors and may have reached the America`s (Carthaginians, Greeks, Islamic, Vikings, Chinese, Irish, etc), howewer their impact was by any means limited, and mostly in the North-American area.
Polinezians also are tought of have landed in the South America caming from the Pacific... Some say that even the Aguaruna tribe might be descended out of some Indonezian tribes, but its just speculations. The founder of the Chimu and Moche, the Mythicall Naymlap , allegedly also came from somewhere from the Pacific, and indeed the Chimuan languages were more unique in many ways.
Putting aside these speculations, in ancient times people did travel alot. The population of Madagascar came from Indonezia in the second century (BC or AD, don`t remembe well) crossing the entire Indian Ocean, the population from Zanzibar are almost 90% arabians and persians...
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Post by Murfios on May 26, 2007 15:19:52 GMT
One weird thing also it is that Olmecs have all their statues carved as if they where from african decent. They somehow made all their features resemble those of africans ei. Fat lips and curly hair.
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Post by Filibusteria on May 26, 2007 16:15:23 GMT
another strange thing is thet the chachapoya statues resemble very much to the Rapa Nui's Moais
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Post by rexdacorum on May 26, 2007 17:22:58 GMT
Actually a Muslim negro prince from the kingdom of Mali is said he did manage to get to the New World... The Moais where build by Inca`s or another andeean civilization. I thought of inserting the island into the game because of its importance. The first people who reached the island where some native americans from South America, in 2 wawes. After that, the polinezians came in and exterminated in battle the native population. When the Europeans first reached the island, only a few of the original amerindians where alive.
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Post by Rah'Majashan on May 26, 2007 17:34:53 GMT
Thor Hyrdal (sp?) did a whole expedition and actually built a boat to prove his theory that the first wave out into the pacific islands, Tihiti, Easter Island, Hawaii, came from South America. Also, they are now finding more and more evidence on the east coast of north america and in south america that man was present well before the common notion of man crossing the land bridge from asia. There is a theory that stone age man crossed the atlantic while fishing along the northern ice.
Either way, I honestly find it fascinating to think of all the possible interaction there may have been in the past that we don't consider true simply because we can't believe they could have accomplished it.
Another example is the discovery of cocaine in Egyptian mummies. A product only found in the New world. We know the Maya had sea ports and they recently found the outline of a massive city on the east coast of Brazil, so we'll never know what the ancient world was really like.
But, the bottom line is, none of that interaction had any real lasting effects on either hemisphere until the Europeans arrived.
My idea for a Chinese junk was more of a 'what the?' for the player to experience.
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Post by Filibusteria on May 26, 2007 19:02:09 GMT
no. the first wave was polynesian, guided by the king Hotu Matu'a. These Polynesian people built the moai, not americans, They also invented rongo-rongo writing. Then, a second wave (which could have come from america) destroyed them, forgot the moai and the writing and started cannibalism and destroyed the island Polynesian culture. After that, other tahitian waves influenced it until it tranformed into what is now. Moai are WAAAAAAAAAY more ancient than incas.
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Post by Filibusteria on May 26, 2007 19:04:12 GMT
Also, a discovery made by NatGeo proves that the first settñlements in America were Polynesians, not Asian. They found some pottery, bones and houses that are earlier tham the Bering Crossing, in palo Verde, Chile.
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Post by Rah'Majashan on May 26, 2007 19:35:39 GMT
Basically, people were moving back and forth across the pacific well before the Asians or the Europeans. And it could be possible that the first wave of peoples to settle the new world were other than the Asian migration. Cause, as I mentioned, they are finding artifacts in North Carolina and Georgia that pre-date the land bridge. It could be possible that they migrated up and over from Chile, but then why aren't these same finds being made in the American South West?
Either way, that it is accepted that peoples from South America were capable of traveling to the pacific islands goes against the common belief of how much seafaring knowledge they had. (I know it wasn't the Inca, they were sort of new kids on the block in the in the grand scheme of things)
I completely forgot about the rongo-rongo writing. It simply amazes me what we don't know about the ancient world of the Americas. I would be interested in learning more about this and you guys here seem loaded with knowledge, can you point me towards any books are sites I should look into?
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Post by Filibusteria on May 26, 2007 20:22:32 GMT
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Post by Filibusteria on May 26, 2007 20:25:02 GMT
but then why aren't these same finds being made in the American South West? I dont understand. Chile is America's Southwest. And I cannot agree with the theory that says that pacific islands were colonized by americans, because american civs Weren't sailor civs! they didnt have the technology or even proper ships! On the other hands, Polynesians were the best sailor people in the world, They had to travel over 3500 km to colonize Rapa Nui(easter Island).
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Post by Rah'Majashan on May 27, 2007 22:07:04 GMT
Sorry, I type fast and often times don't really pay attention to my mistakes.
Sorry, I should clarify, The US south west. If I talk to Canadians they take offense at being considered part of 'America' where if i talk to people from South America they take offense if I don't.
I'm sure the pacific islands were not 'colonized' by americans. But it has been proven that pre-columbian societies had the basic boat making skills necessary to get to Rapa Nui. All they really had to do was get into the current and ride it straight there. Thor Heyerdahl already proved this on his journey aboard the Kon Tiki. All it would have taken was a reed boat without sails.
Honestly its a mute topic because we'll honestly never know if people were sailing back and forth across the pacific. I just personally think there was a lot more interaction in the ancient world then we commonly believe.
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